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[music]

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So, who takes out
the trash at your house?

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In our house, it's Grace, unless
it's really, really stinky,

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and then it's one of my sons.

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Every house has trash,
and the key is to take it out.

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If you live in a home,
you're going to have trash.

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You need to collect it
and take it out.

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So it is in any relationship,

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but particularly
a marriage relationship.

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You're going to
sin against them.

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They're going to
sin against you.

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Trash is going to accumulate.

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And if you don't know how
to take out the trash,

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it's going to stink up
the whole relationship,

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and that's
the analogy that we use.

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And sometimes you'll
hear married couples say,

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"We never fight."

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Oh, really?

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That's not true, right?

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What that means is,
"We don't talk,

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because we live parallel lives."

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Or what that means is, "We're
roommates, not soul mates."

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Or what that means
is, "We're lying."

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Because every time you have
an intimate relationship,

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a friendship, you're going
to have some conflict.

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You're going to have some
disagreement, some strife,

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and occasionally you're
going to have a fight.

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So, the question is not
are you going to fight?

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The question is are you going
to have a good fight

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or a bad fight?

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So, for those of you who
are married or engaged,

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for the rest of the sermon

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here's what I'm going
to ask you to do.

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Hold their hand,
your fiancé or your spouse.

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And if you say, "I refuse," then
you really need this sermon.

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This is one you'll really enjoy.

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So, go ahead
and hold their hand,

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your fiancé or your spouse,

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and we'll begin
the reconciliation process.

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Now, here's how not to fight.

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Here's how not to fight.

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There's a researcher
named John Gottman.

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He has studied marriages, and he
has been able to predict divorce

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with a 91% success rate.

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And what he says is
there are a few variables.

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He calls them four horsemen,
using apocalyptic language

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to talk about marriage
and relationships.

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And he says when these
things are present,

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the fight is
going to go very bad,

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and usually the marriage
will end in divorce.

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Additionally,
I would say for other

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relationships--friendships,
roommates,

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family relationships--if
these things are present,

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the same kind of painful ending
to the relationship is common.

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And he says it begins
with a harsh start-up.

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Do you know what
a harsh start-up is?

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Somebody's angry, tempers are
flaring, plates are flying.

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She's got her hands on her hips.

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He's immediately got that look.

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It starts bad.

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It starts harsh,
it starts intense,

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it starts with raised voices,
starts with a conflict,

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a harsh start-up, and then it
proceeds through this pattern.

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Number one, horseman
number one is criticism.

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This is where you attack
the person, not the problem.

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When you attack the problem,
you say,

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"Okay, okay,
we have this issue.

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"It's a problem.

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Let's talk about this.
Let's work on it."

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In criticism,
the person is the problem,

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and this is where you start
criticizing the person.

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"You always...
You never..."

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As soon as you hear
that language,

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you're going down
the wrong route.

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And what you're doing,
you're pushing them away,

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not drawing them in.

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You're fighting
with them as a foe,

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rather than welcoming
them as a friend.

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It starts with criticism;

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the point is to hurt the person,
to belittle them, to shame them,

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to make them suffer and pay.

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The second horseman,
then, is contempt,

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and this is where you're
just disgusted by them,

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and you don't even
pretend to hide it.

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"You are disgusting.
You are so immature.

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You are so out of control."

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It's very condescending,
and it's contemptuous.

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This is, in every way, trying
to shame them, to belittle them,

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to defeat them, to control them.

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"You make me sick.

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"It's amazing I even
put up with you.

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"You know, no one else
would put up with you.

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"You're lucky to have me, but
you have no idea how hard it is

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for me to be here with you."

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Contempt.

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Number three, horseman
number three, defensiveness.

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This is where the Holy Spirit
is convicting you of sin.

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Maybe they're saying,
"Hey, that's not nice.

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"You're being harsh.
You're being mean.

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That's out of line.
That's out of order."

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And rather than repenting,
you defend yourself.

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"Well, of course I'm angry.
You made me angry.

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"Of course I'm arguing with you.
Who wouldn't argue with you?

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"Oh, you want to talk
about my problems?

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No, let's talk about
your problems."

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Defensiveness.

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Some of you have never heard
your spouse apologize, never.

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Or when they do apologize,

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it's, "I'm sorry that you
made me mad,"

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which isn't
really an apology.

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Some of you grew up in homes
where your parents--maybe it was

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even your dad, he tends to
be the most common--

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never apologized,
never said he was sorry.

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It was never his fault.

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Maybe you even had those
parents who said,

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"Do as I say, not as I do."

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That's defensiveness.

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"I'm not the problem; you are.

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"You could say I'm the problem,
and I'm going to try and

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"convince you that this really
isn't my responsibility

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in any regard."

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Number four, horseman
number four, stonewalling.

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This is when it's
escalated, it's heated.

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Somebody's hurt.

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Maybe there's tears.

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It's not going well.

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And stonewalling is when
you ignore the other person.

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This is when you turn up the TV.

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This is when you raise your
voice to drown them out.

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This is when you literally
turn your back and walk away,

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maybe get in the car
and drive away.

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You refuse to engage.

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You refuse to resolve.

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You're stonewalling.

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Now, do you think it's more
common for men or women

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in an argument to stonewall?

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Men.

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Eighty-five percent of the time,
it's the man who stonewalls.

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He's the one who turns up
the TV, gets on the phone,

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surfs the Internet, turns his
back, walks away, gets the keys,

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drives away, so that
you can't work on it.

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It's over, it's over.

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That's how not to fight.

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That results in marriage
ultimately, often, in divorce,

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because you go from
being one to being two,

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from being allies
to being enemies.

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And the principles for this
sermon are true

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for all relationships, right?

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Your friends, your family,

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your coworkers, your
neighbors, your own children.

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These are relationship
principles that have specific

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application to marriage,
in light of our series;

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but the truth is,
single or married,

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these are principles
for us all.

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Well, if that's how not to
fight--some of you say,

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"Man, he's got
really good examples.

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Where'd he get those?"

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From his life and his hypocrisy.

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Now, how to fight to the glory
of God and the good of your

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relationship, how to
have a good fight.

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You're going to fight, so you
may as well have a good fight.

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Number one, we want
you to recognize sin.

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What sins are,
sins are a violation

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of the character of God.

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God's loving, gracious,
truthful, just, merciful, kind.

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Sin is what's contrary
to the character of God.

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Sin is what's contrary
to the Word of God.

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That's what 1 John says, that
sin is the transgression

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of the Word, the Law of God.

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And if it all gets confusing,
just think about Jesus;

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and anything that's not
like Jesus, that's sin.

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And so the result is--the Bible
says it rightly, 1 John 1:10,

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"If we say we have not
sinned, we make him a liar,

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and his word is not in us."

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We're all sinners--
and you need to know this

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in any relationship,
but particularly marriage:

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It's two sinners.

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You know, one sinner plus one
sinner does not equal zero sin.

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Two sinners coming together
are going to have to

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continually deal with sin.

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Again, it's like
living in a house.

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You're going to have trash.

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You've got to pack it up.
You've got to take it out.

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Two sinners, living, dwelling
together in a relationship,

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particularly a friendship
and/or a marriage,

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there's going to be sin.

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You've got to learn how to
pack it up and take it out.

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And if either of you should say,
"I'm not the sinner; you are.

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I'm the holy one;
you're the unholy one,"

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you're saying God is a liar,
because God says we've all

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sinned and fallen short
of the glory of God.

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We all need to be humble.

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We've all got stuff to work on,

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and none of us has
the résumé of Jesus.

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We're all works in progress,
so we've got to be patient,

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and considerate,
and affectionate,

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and tender with one another,
even when we're frustrated.

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And so at Mars Hill, it's really
important that you know that

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we use the language of sin
because that's the language

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the Bible uses.

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It's not just a moral
failure or a mistake.

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It's a sin, and that means it
not only is implicating

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and affecting the person that
we're in relationship with,

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it also includes God.

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It includes the Lord.

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Because when we sin,
we sin against the Lord.

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That's what the psalmist says.

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"Against you only Lord
God have I sinned."

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And we sin against the person
we're in relationship with.

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And this is what distinguishes
Christian relationships

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from all other relationships.

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It was interesting.

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Grace and I were doing a recent
media interview around the book,

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and we're dialoguing.

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It was a cool interview.

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It was fine, but with some
non-Christian sex therapists,

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which is just weird, you know,
a thing to do on TV

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in front of everyone.

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And they said, "Well, you
know, we kind of like the book,

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but the word 'sin,' boy, that's
a really inappropriate word."

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"No, it's a word that God uses,

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and it's a word
that we want to use."

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And their argument was,

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"Because sin denotes
something really bad."

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Right.
God died for it.

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His name is Jesus,
so it's a big deal.

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It's that big of a deal
that God has to die for sin.

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"And we don't like the word,
because it can produce shame."

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Well, it could produce shame or
it can produce conviction

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that leads to repentance,
that leads to forgiveness,

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because Jesus went to the cross,
and he scorned our shame.

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But what we want--because, see,
the argument is, basically,

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if you use the word "sin,"
people are going to feel bad.

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Here's the big idea: if you've
done bad, feel bad; otherwise,

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you're a sociopath, right?

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We don't want you to say,
"I did bad, but I feel good."

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Well, okay, then you
have some serious issues.

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Sometimes we feel bad,
because we've done bad.

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And what that is,
that's not condemnation.

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"There is now no condemnation
for those who are in Christ."

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It's conviction.

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It's the Holy Spirit showing
us our sin, not to destroy us,

244
00:10:29,042 --> 00:10:32,792
but to motivate us to destroy
the sin before it destroys

245
00:10:32,833 --> 00:10:35,000
the relationship.

246
00:10:35,083 --> 00:10:37,333
So, number one, recognize sin.

247
00:10:37,375 --> 00:10:39,833
Number two, repent of sin.

248
00:10:39,875 --> 00:10:43,500
James 5:16 says, "Confess
your sins to one another

249
00:10:43,542 --> 00:10:46,125
and pray for one another,
that you may be healed."

250
00:10:46,167 --> 00:10:47,792
You're struggling in
your relationship.

251
00:10:47,833 --> 00:10:49,875
You're having a hard time
trusting one another,

252
00:10:49,958 --> 00:10:52,375
loving one another, being
considerate with one another,

253
00:10:52,458 --> 00:10:54,000
you've got to talk.

254
00:10:54,042 --> 00:10:56,833
Confession is talking about it,
talking about your sin with God,

255
00:10:56,875 --> 00:11:00,083
talking about your sin with
the person whom you've sinned

256
00:11:00,167 --> 00:11:04,500
against, and praying
for one another.

257
00:11:04,583 --> 00:11:06,208
This is what Christians do.

258
00:11:06,292 --> 00:11:09,417
"I need you to pray for me.
I'm going to pray for you.

259
00:11:09,500 --> 00:11:12,125
We need to get God involved,"
right?

260
00:11:12,167 --> 00:11:14,333
The Bible says that a cord
of three strands

261
00:11:14,375 --> 00:11:15,708
is not easily broken.

262
00:11:15,792 --> 00:11:18,167
It's you, that person,
and Jesus.

263
00:11:18,250 --> 00:11:21,375
And what's going to happen is
the sin is going to come between

264
00:11:21,458 --> 00:11:23,583
you, or Jesus is going
to come between you.

265
00:11:23,667 --> 00:11:25,333
And if the sin
comes between you,

266
00:11:25,375 --> 00:11:26,833
it's going to destroy
your relationship.

267
00:11:26,875 --> 00:11:29,000
If Jesus comes between you,
that's going to reconcile

268
00:11:29,083 --> 00:11:30,417
your relationship.

269
00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:32,833
And if you're struggling
in your relationship today,

270
00:11:32,875 --> 00:11:34,208
the answer is Jesus.

271
00:11:34,292 --> 00:11:36,833
The problem is sin;
the answer is Jesus.

272
00:11:36,875 --> 00:11:39,125
And confessing it means talking
about it with Jesus

273
00:11:39,167 --> 00:11:42,500
and the person you're having
the strife with--

274
00:11:42,542 --> 00:11:44,875
you confessing your sin,
them confessing their sin,

275
00:11:44,958 --> 00:11:46,500
praying for one another,

276
00:11:46,583 --> 00:11:49,625
and Jesus will show up
and heal your relationship.

277
00:11:49,667 --> 00:11:53,708
And this is repentance, and
repentance is essentially what

278
00:11:53,792 --> 00:11:56,375
it means to be a Christian.

279
00:11:56,458 --> 00:11:58,792
The Protestant Reformation was
kicked off with basically

280
00:11:58,833 --> 00:12:01,667
a manifesto called,
"The 95 Theses"

281
00:12:01,750 --> 00:12:03,833
that was penned by
Martin Luther,

282
00:12:03,875 --> 00:12:06,583
and it was nailed to
this door at a place called

283
00:12:06,667 --> 00:12:10,000
Wittenberg, and it began this
manifesto with this statement:

284
00:12:10,083 --> 00:12:13,500
"All of a Christian's life
is one of repentance."

285
00:12:13,583 --> 00:12:15,583
You repent of sin
to become a Christian.

286
00:12:15,667 --> 00:12:18,083
You repent of sin
to grow as a Christian.

287
00:12:18,167 --> 00:12:20,833
You repent of sin
to reveal Christ to others.

288
00:12:20,875 --> 00:12:24,125
All of a Christian's life
is one of repentance.

289
00:12:24,167 --> 00:12:28,000
The prophets keep saying,
"Repent, repent, repent."

290
00:12:28,083 --> 00:12:31,083
And repentance is three things.

291
00:12:31,167 --> 00:12:36,333
It's confession,
it's contrition,

292
00:12:36,375 --> 00:12:38,167
and it's change.

293
00:12:38,250 --> 00:12:40,208
That's ultimately what it is.

294
00:12:40,292 --> 00:12:44,500
Confession includes your
mind and your mouth.

295
00:12:44,583 --> 00:12:47,917
When you become a Christian,
and you're being renewed by

296
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,208
the Holy Spirit, and you're
studying the Word of God,

297
00:12:51,292 --> 00:12:55,417
the way you think about yourself
and your sin starts to change.

298
00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:57,333
That's why the Bible
says in Romans 12,

299
00:12:57,375 --> 00:12:59,833
"Do not be conformed to
the pattern of this world,

300
00:12:59,875 --> 00:13:02,083
but be transformed by
the renewing of your mind."

301
00:13:02,167 --> 00:13:03,708
You think differently.

302
00:13:03,792 --> 00:13:06,667
So, it begins with
confession, saying,

303
00:13:06,750 --> 00:13:12,917
"I see where I've sinned.
I see it.

304
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:18,125
My mind thinks differently
about my behavior."

305
00:13:18,167 --> 00:13:21,500
Some of you used to do things
that you used to brag about

306
00:13:21,583 --> 00:13:24,292
or boast about, and now
you're ashamed of.

307
00:13:24,333 --> 00:13:29,000
That's confession that
comes out of conviction,

308
00:13:29,083 --> 00:13:31,792
and the Holy Spirit
convicts us of sin,

309
00:13:31,833 --> 00:13:33,333
so that we might confess it.

310
00:13:33,375 --> 00:13:35,917
Jesus said in John's Gospel
he'd send the Holy Spirit,

311
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,208
and part of his ministry
would be to convict us of sin.

312
00:13:39,292 --> 00:13:42,875
I know that the Holy Spirit
will give to each of us,

313
00:13:42,958 --> 00:13:47,000
myself included, something,
some issue, some instance,

314
00:13:47,083 --> 00:13:50,833
some relationship, and he will
bring that to the forefront

315
00:13:50,875 --> 00:13:54,000
of our minds, and he
will be compelling

316
00:13:54,083 --> 00:13:57,125
and propelling us
to deal with that.

317
00:13:57,167 --> 00:13:59,000
What is that for you?

318
00:13:59,083 --> 00:14:00,708
Don't check your phone.

319
00:14:00,792 --> 00:14:03,625
Don't say, "Boy, I really
hope this sermon ends soon."

320
00:14:03,667 --> 00:14:05,375
Don't start thinking
about all the people

321
00:14:05,458 --> 00:14:07,667
who need to hear this.

322
00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:11,000
Hear it, acknowledge
that, identify that,

323
00:14:11,083 --> 00:14:14,500
allow God to do a work
in your life today.

324
00:14:14,583 --> 00:14:16,500
And it proceeds,
repentance does,

325
00:14:16,583 --> 00:14:18,583
from confession to contrition.

326
00:14:18,667 --> 00:14:21,417
Confession is your
mind and your mouth.

327
00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:25,167
Contrition is ultimately
inclusive of your emotions

328
00:14:25,250 --> 00:14:27,792
and your expressions.

329
00:14:27,833 --> 00:14:31,417
Somebody who is really contrite,
they not only know categorically

330
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:33,667
that they have done wrong,
but they feel emotionally

331
00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:35,583
that they've done wrong.

332
00:14:35,667 --> 00:14:37,208
You feel it.

333
00:14:37,292 --> 00:14:40,208
Have you ever seen
someone apologize?

334
00:14:40,292 --> 00:14:42,667
And you could just
tell they're sincere.

335
00:14:42,750 --> 00:14:44,125
They mean it.

336
00:14:44,167 --> 00:14:45,667
They're contrite.

337
00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:47,208
This really bothers them.

338
00:14:47,292 --> 00:14:49,917
"I don't need to shame them,
pile on, or push them.

339
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,500
"They're already there.

340
00:14:51,542 --> 00:14:53,208
"I need to love
them, forgive them.

341
00:14:53,292 --> 00:14:56,333
"I don't need to in any
way make them feel this,

342
00:14:56,375 --> 00:15:01,500
because they already feel it."

343
00:15:01,542 --> 00:15:03,417
It's your emotions
and your expressions.

344
00:15:03,500 --> 00:15:05,917
That's contrition.

345
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,833
For those of you
who are parents,

346
00:15:07,875 --> 00:15:11,000
you can help develop your
children in relationships by,

347
00:15:11,083 --> 00:15:13,000
when they sin, name the sin.

348
00:15:13,042 --> 00:15:14,417
Don't just say, "You sinned."

349
00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:16,792
Tell them, "Okay, here's what
you said or did,

350
00:15:16,833 --> 00:15:18,167
"or didn't say or do.

351
00:15:18,250 --> 00:15:19,833
"Here's what it was.

352
00:15:19,875 --> 00:15:22,000
"Now I want you
to go to that person,

353
00:15:22,083 --> 00:15:24,500
"and I want you
to look them in the eye,

354
00:15:24,583 --> 00:15:26,000
"because friendship is
all about face-to-face,

355
00:15:26,083 --> 00:15:28,208
"and I want you to tell
them you're sorry,

356
00:15:28,292 --> 00:15:30,708
"and I want you to ask them
to forgive you

357
00:15:30,792 --> 00:15:32,125
for this specific sin."

358
00:15:32,167 --> 00:15:34,333
Otherwise, what happens, when
you're kids, parents are like,

359
00:15:34,375 --> 00:15:35,833
"You sinned.
Say you're sorry."

360
00:15:35,875 --> 00:15:37,333
"Sorry!"
They're not.

361
00:15:37,375 --> 00:15:39,500
But I tell you, you
put two kids together.

362
00:15:39,583 --> 00:15:41,708
You make them look
one another in the eye.

363
00:15:41,792 --> 00:15:43,125
"I'm sorry.
I sinned.

364
00:15:43,167 --> 00:15:44,917
Here's what I did.
Please forgive me."

365
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,417
Then there's the awkward
silence, and the other one says,

366
00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:48,833
"I forgive you."

367
00:15:48,875 --> 00:15:50,667
The emotions
and the expressions change.

368
00:15:50,750 --> 00:15:52,708
Because when you're
looking someone in the eye,

369
00:15:52,792 --> 00:15:55,375
and you see that you've hurt
them, it affects your heart,

370
00:15:55,458 --> 00:15:57,125
and you realize, "Man,

371
00:15:57,167 --> 00:15:59,125
"sin is not just
breaking God's Law,

372
00:15:59,167 --> 00:16:01,500
"it's also breaking God's heart,

373
00:16:01,583 --> 00:16:04,208
and it's breaking the heart
of others."

374
00:16:04,292 --> 00:16:10,000
So, it is conviction, it is
contrition, and it is change,

375
00:16:10,042 --> 00:16:13,833
and change, that's your
will and your works.

376
00:16:13,875 --> 00:16:16,000
By the power of
the Holy Spirit, you say,

377
00:16:16,083 --> 00:16:17,708
"I don't want to
do that anymore.

378
00:16:17,792 --> 00:16:19,500
"I don't want to
say that anymore.

379
00:16:19,542 --> 00:16:21,500
"I don't want to be
like that anymore.

380
00:16:21,542 --> 00:16:24,500
"I want to be like Jesus.
I want to get beyond this.

381
00:16:24,542 --> 00:16:27,000
"I want this to die,
since Jesus died for it.

382
00:16:27,042 --> 00:16:30,000
I want to put it to death."

383
00:16:30,042 --> 00:16:32,375
And ultimately,
by the grace of God,

384
00:16:32,458 --> 00:16:35,500
through the power of
the Holy Spirit, you change.

385
00:16:35,542 --> 00:16:37,000
You stop doing that.

386
00:16:37,083 --> 00:16:38,417
You stop being like that.

387
00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:40,708
And maybe it's all at
once, and it's radical.

388
00:16:40,792 --> 00:16:42,833
Maybe you have some
failures along the way,

389
00:16:42,875 --> 00:16:46,125
but you repent and come clean,
and you seek the help that you

390
00:16:46,167 --> 00:16:49,375
need, and you confess it to your
spouse, and you ask for prayer,

391
00:16:49,458 --> 00:16:52,333
and by the grace of God,
you do change.

392
00:16:52,375 --> 00:16:54,833
And, friends, this is
the key to all relationships,

393
00:16:54,875 --> 00:16:58,167
but particularly
Christian marriage.

394
00:16:58,250 --> 00:17:01,625
Gary Thomas,
he's a good Christian author.

395
00:17:01,667 --> 00:17:05,208
He says, "Couples don't fall out
of love so much as they

396
00:17:05,292 --> 00:17:08,125
fall out of repentance."

397
00:17:08,167 --> 00:17:09,875
You want to have
a good friendship,

398
00:17:09,958 --> 00:17:11,625
you want to have
a long relationship,

399
00:17:11,667 --> 00:17:14,625
you want to have a long marriage
that is enduring and endearing,

400
00:17:14,667 --> 00:17:16,792
you want to celebrate your
50th wedding anniversary

401
00:17:16,833 --> 00:17:18,375
holding hands?

402
00:17:18,458 --> 00:17:22,208
Repent, repent, repent, so that
sin is no longer between you,

403
00:17:22,292 --> 00:17:24,625
but Jesus is.

404
00:17:24,667 --> 00:17:27,792
And couples will say, "Well, you
know, we've fallen out of love."

405
00:17:27,833 --> 00:17:30,125
No, you've fallen
out of repentance,

406
00:17:30,167 --> 00:17:34,833
because it is difficult to
remain loving, trusting,

407
00:17:34,875 --> 00:17:38,125
and intimate, when you
or they are unrepentant.

408
00:17:38,167 --> 00:17:41,625
But when you're both repentant,
the love flows freely,

409
00:17:41,667 --> 00:17:46,833
and the trust grows daily.

410
00:17:46,875 --> 00:17:50,417
Now, a couple of things on
repentance and what it is not.

411
00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:52,708
Number one, repentance
is not getting caught,

412
00:17:52,792 --> 00:17:55,292
but coming clean.

413
00:17:55,333 --> 00:17:58,208
How many of you, you've not
really told the truth

414
00:17:58,292 --> 00:17:59,875
to your spouse?

415
00:17:59,958 --> 00:18:02,833
There's sin in your life
that they are unaware of.

416
00:18:02,875 --> 00:18:05,500
Maybe what you would consider
secret sin, hidden sin,

417
00:18:05,542 --> 00:18:07,417
God sees and knows all.

418
00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:10,125
So, don't wait to get
caught, come clean.

419
00:18:10,167 --> 00:18:13,000
Don't live under
the anxiety of being exposed.

420
00:18:13,083 --> 00:18:14,500
Repent.

421
00:18:14,542 --> 00:18:18,000
Invite God and whomever you've
offended or are sinning against

422
00:18:18,083 --> 00:18:21,792
into that sin, so that there
might be healing,

423
00:18:21,833 --> 00:18:24,125
and hope, and help.

424
00:18:24,167 --> 00:18:27,500
Number two, repentance is not
blaming others for our sin,

425
00:18:27,583 --> 00:18:31,833
denying our sin, excusing our
sin, or diminishing our sin.

426
00:18:31,875 --> 00:18:33,875
It's not,
"Oh, it's their fault.

427
00:18:33,958 --> 00:18:36,083
"You made me mad.
It's my genetics.

428
00:18:36,167 --> 00:18:38,583
"My personality type is J-E-R-K.

429
00:18:38,667 --> 00:18:40,917
You know, I had a hard day."

430
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,208
It's instead
saying, "I'm guilty.

431
00:18:43,292 --> 00:18:45,500
It's my fault.
I'm sorry."

432
00:18:45,583 --> 00:18:47,417
Just be honest.

433
00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:50,333
And number three,
it's not worldly sorrow.

434
00:18:50,375 --> 00:18:53,500
Paul tells the Corinthians not
to practice worldly sorrow,

435
00:18:53,583 --> 00:18:57,625
because non-Christians can feel
bad, but they don't repent.

436
00:18:57,667 --> 00:19:00,500
You can cry,
and say you're sorry,

437
00:19:00,583 --> 00:19:02,417
and say you'll
never do it again,

438
00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:05,833
but the truth is there's not
going to be that deep change in

439
00:19:05,875 --> 00:19:08,875
nature and desire, until you've
given the sin to Jesus and

440
00:19:08,958 --> 00:19:12,333
received his righteousness, and
become a new creation in Christ,

441
00:19:12,375 --> 00:19:15,000
born again as a Christian.

442
00:19:15,083 --> 00:19:17,208
A non-Christian can feel bad.

443
00:19:17,292 --> 00:19:19,625
A non-Christian can
even stop sinning,

444
00:19:19,667 --> 00:19:25,208
but only a Christian
can start worshiping.

445
00:19:25,292 --> 00:19:28,417
And the big idea is this:
marriage gets bitter

446
00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:30,583
or it gets better.

447
00:19:30,667 --> 00:19:33,583
And all marriages are on
a continuum sliding toward

448
00:19:33,667 --> 00:19:35,917
getting bitter
or getting better.

449
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,875
Every marriage is sliding
one direction or another,

450
00:19:38,958 --> 00:19:41,625
and I would say the same is
true for friendships

451
00:19:41,667 --> 00:19:43,208
and other relationships.

452
00:19:43,292 --> 00:19:47,125
They're sliding toward getting
bitter or getting better.

453
00:19:47,167 --> 00:19:51,417
And so I want to share with
you from Ephesians 4:25-32.

454
00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:55,708
In my 15 years of pastoral
ministry at Mars Hill Church and

455
00:19:55,792 --> 00:19:59,167
a lot of counseling, I have used
this section of Scripture

456
00:19:59,250 --> 00:20:01,875
more than all other Scriptures.

457
00:20:01,958 --> 00:20:04,417
Biblical counselor
David Powlison says, quote,

458
00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:07,375
"In a pinch, you could do all
your biblical counseling from

459
00:20:07,458 --> 00:20:10,000
the book of Ephesians."

460
00:20:10,042 --> 00:20:12,833
And this is at
the heart of Ephesians,

461
00:20:12,875 --> 00:20:15,083
and this is at the heart
of God's intent

462
00:20:15,167 --> 00:20:17,333
for our relationships.

463
00:20:17,375 --> 00:20:19,292
And he says it this way.

464
00:20:19,333 --> 00:20:21,000
"Therefore, having
put away falsehood,

465
00:20:21,083 --> 00:20:23,125
let each one of you
speak the truth."

466
00:20:23,167 --> 00:20:26,417
So, the first thing is you need
to be honest about your sin;

467
00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:28,500
and if they've
sinned against you,

468
00:20:28,583 --> 00:20:30,625
you need to be honest
with them.

469
00:20:30,667 --> 00:20:32,000
Don't blame shift.

470
00:20:32,083 --> 00:20:33,708
Don't lie.
Don't diminish.

471
00:20:33,792 --> 00:20:36,917
Don't excuse.
Don't ignore.

472
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,208
Don't make it a bigger
deal than it is,

473
00:20:39,292 --> 00:20:41,667
and don't make it
a lesser deal than it is.

474
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:44,625
Tell the truth.
Be honest.

475
00:20:44,667 --> 00:20:47,792
"Be angry and do not sin."

476
00:20:47,833 --> 00:20:50,875
Now here's what it doesn't
say: "Never get angry."

477
00:20:50,958 --> 00:20:54,292
There is some erroneous
teaching that says, essentially,

478
00:20:54,333 --> 00:20:56,167
there are emotions
that are godly

479
00:20:56,250 --> 00:20:58,083
and emotions that are ungodly.

480
00:20:58,167 --> 00:21:01,333
The truth is God has all
emotions and expresses them

481
00:21:01,375 --> 00:21:03,000
in holy ways.

482
00:21:03,042 --> 00:21:06,000
All emotions, therefore,
are potentially good,

483
00:21:06,083 --> 00:21:10,208
though they could lead us to
sin, if we don't control them,

484
00:21:10,292 --> 00:21:13,292
but we allow them to control us.

485
00:21:13,333 --> 00:21:15,875
Now, this is something,
to be honest with you,

486
00:21:15,958 --> 00:21:18,833
that's been an issue
for me my whole life.

487
00:21:18,875 --> 00:21:22,125
I grew up seeing a lot of
injustice and a lot of abuse,

488
00:21:22,167 --> 00:21:26,708
and there's a righteous
defender/protector anger in me;

489
00:21:26,792 --> 00:21:31,875
but sometimes that anger
is out of control,

490
00:21:31,958 --> 00:21:33,917
meaning, I'll get angry.

491
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,667
I'll say something I shouldn't.

492
00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:37,667
I'll be difficult.

493
00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:39,125
And more and more,

494
00:21:39,167 --> 00:21:40,792
the Holy Spirit
is convicting me.

495
00:21:40,833 --> 00:21:43,333
Yeah, the anger can be really
good: defend, protect, provide.

496
00:21:43,375 --> 00:21:47,500
It can also be, you know,
selfish, bullying,

497
00:21:47,583 --> 00:21:49,625
mean-spirited.

498
00:21:49,667 --> 00:21:52,125
That's what he's talking about.

499
00:21:52,167 --> 00:21:55,125
You may be angry, and you may
even have a good reason

500
00:21:55,167 --> 00:21:57,875
for your anger, but don't let
it lead you into sin,

501
00:21:57,958 --> 00:21:59,875
because then what you're
doing is you're saying,

502
00:21:59,958 --> 00:22:02,417
"They sinned against me;
I'm going to sin against them."

503
00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:06,000
That doesn't make it any better;
that only makes it bitter.

504
00:22:06,083 --> 00:22:09,292
What are you angry about?
Who are you angry at?

505
00:22:09,333 --> 00:22:13,208
And how are you using
that anger to glorify God?

506
00:22:13,292 --> 00:22:16,917
Or are you allowing it
to lead you into sin?

507
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,833
And "do not let the sun
go down on your anger."

508
00:22:19,875 --> 00:22:21,875
In a day that was
an agrarian society,

509
00:22:21,958 --> 00:22:23,708
and people were
fishers and farmers,

510
00:22:23,792 --> 00:22:26,208
when the sun would come
up, you would get up,

511
00:22:26,292 --> 00:22:28,667
when the sun would go
down, you would go home,

512
00:22:28,750 --> 00:22:30,292
because your day was over.

513
00:22:30,333 --> 00:22:33,500
What he's saying here is
deal with the sin quickly.

514
00:22:33,583 --> 00:22:35,500
Don't let days go by.

515
00:22:35,583 --> 00:22:37,875
It's okay if you're
frustrated and angry, to say,

516
00:22:37,958 --> 00:22:41,083
"I'm going to go for a walk,
pray, clear my head, calm down,

517
00:22:41,167 --> 00:22:42,833
and figure out how to say this."

518
00:22:42,875 --> 00:22:46,583
That's okay.
But if you're leaving time,
you're leaving, he says,

519
00:22:46,667 --> 00:22:49,208
an opportunity for Satan.

520
00:22:49,292 --> 00:22:52,167
"And give no opportunity
to the devil."

521
00:22:52,250 --> 00:22:54,708
Again, if the sin
comes between you,

522
00:22:54,792 --> 00:22:57,625
then Satan has come between
you, and the longer you wait,

523
00:22:57,667 --> 00:23:03,708
the worse it gets
and the more he destroys.

524
00:23:03,792 --> 00:23:05,917
You say, "Well, we're
supposed to talk.

525
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,208
How should we talk?"

526
00:23:08,292 --> 00:23:10,417
"Let no corrupting talk
come out of your mouths,

527
00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:12,625
"but only such as is
good for building up,

528
00:23:12,667 --> 00:23:14,125
as fits the occasion."

529
00:23:14,167 --> 00:23:16,917
When you go to tell the truth,
you've got to remember,

530
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,625
"I want words that build you
up, don't break you down,

531
00:23:19,667 --> 00:23:21,833
"words that invite you
in, don't push you away,

532
00:23:21,875 --> 00:23:28,083
words that give you hope,
don't cause you to lose hope."

533
00:23:28,167 --> 00:23:30,375
And you can tell
what these issues are.

534
00:23:30,458 --> 00:23:32,875
And some of you say,
"Well, I'm doing pretty good,

535
00:23:32,958 --> 00:23:35,208
but every once in
a while, I blow up."

536
00:23:35,292 --> 00:23:37,417
It's because there's an issue of
unforgiveness somewhere, right?

537
00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:39,000
There's a grenade in your life.

538
00:23:39,042 --> 00:23:41,208
The pin is pulled,
and it's sitting there.

539
00:23:41,292 --> 00:23:44,833
And every once in a while, you
get near it, and it just blows.

540
00:23:44,875 --> 00:23:47,000
The conversation blows up.
The four horsemen show up.

541
00:23:47,083 --> 00:23:48,625
You go into the crazy cycle.

542
00:23:48,667 --> 00:23:51,833
All of a sudden, it's just right
back to the same conversation,

543
00:23:51,875 --> 00:23:55,167
the same flaring tempers,
the same sad emotions,

544
00:23:55,250 --> 00:23:59,000
the same hurt feelings,
no resolution.

545
00:23:59,083 --> 00:24:01,208
"We've done this over and over.

546
00:24:01,292 --> 00:24:04,333
"What we try to do now is just
walk around the landmine.

547
00:24:04,375 --> 00:24:06,792
Don't talk about that."

548
00:24:06,833 --> 00:24:11,417
The key is to watch what
you say in those moments,

549
00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:13,500
to watch what you
say in those moments.

550
00:24:13,542 --> 00:24:16,208
Some of you say,
"How am I going to do that?"

551
00:24:16,292 --> 00:24:17,625
Well, he continues,

552
00:24:17,667 --> 00:24:19,833
"That it may give grace
to those who hear.

553
00:24:19,875 --> 00:24:22,000
And do not grieve
the Holy Spirit of God."

554
00:24:22,083 --> 00:24:24,708
God the Holy Spirit inspired and
empowered the ministry of Jesus.

555
00:24:24,792 --> 00:24:26,792
He indwells
and empowers the believer.

556
00:24:26,833 --> 00:24:29,167
He wants to help you
control your tongue.

557
00:24:29,250 --> 00:24:33,167
The Bible says that life
and death are held by

558
00:24:33,250 --> 00:24:35,625
the power of the tongue.

559
00:24:35,667 --> 00:24:39,167
You could bring life or death to
that relationship by the words

560
00:24:39,250 --> 00:24:42,083
you choose, and the Holy Spirit
wants you to have truthful

561
00:24:42,167 --> 00:24:45,875
words, not lying words,
but words that are gracious,

562
00:24:45,958 --> 00:24:49,500
words that are life giving,
not death causing.

563
00:24:49,583 --> 00:24:52,708
And so you may even need to stop
in those moments and say,

564
00:24:52,792 --> 00:24:54,708
"Okay, okay, I want
to talk about this.

565
00:24:54,792 --> 00:24:56,125
"I want to keep going.

566
00:24:56,167 --> 00:24:58,625
"What I'm about to say
is not the Holy Spirit.

567
00:24:58,667 --> 00:25:00,917
"Let me pray.
Let me ask him to help.

568
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,333
Let me listen," right?

569
00:25:02,375 --> 00:25:04,333
"Let me," throughout the course
of the conversation,

570
00:25:04,375 --> 00:25:05,708
"Holy Spirit, help me.

571
00:25:05,792 --> 00:25:08,917
"I want to say this right.
I want to have the right tone.

572
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,625
"I want to have the right words.
I want to help.

573
00:25:11,667 --> 00:25:14,125
"I don't want to be
an instrument of the enemy

574
00:25:14,167 --> 00:25:15,500
to destroy our family."

575
00:25:15,583 --> 00:25:20,500
And if you don't, here's
what happens: bitterness.

576
00:25:20,583 --> 00:25:25,000
Bitterness.

577
00:25:25,083 --> 00:25:28,208
See, the sinner is
supposed to repent of sin;

578
00:25:28,292 --> 00:25:31,208
the victim of sin is
supposed to forgive.

579
00:25:31,292 --> 00:25:37,000
And if the victim of sin does
not forgive, you become bitter.

580
00:25:37,083 --> 00:25:41,625
All you need to do to become
bitter is not forgive.

581
00:25:41,667 --> 00:25:44,667
So, he goes to bitterness.

582
00:25:44,750 --> 00:25:47,500
"Let all bitterness--"

583
00:25:47,542 --> 00:25:50,500
And see, what happens with
bitterness is it grows.

584
00:25:50,542 --> 00:25:52,625
It's like cancer in a body.

585
00:25:52,667 --> 00:25:55,000
It continues to grow,
and multiply,

586
00:25:55,083 --> 00:25:58,833
and manifest until
it causes death.

587
00:25:58,875 --> 00:26:01,417
So, what starts with
bitterness grows into "wrath."

588
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:03,583
This is where you're
angry, and frustrated,

589
00:26:03,667 --> 00:26:07,708
and you're starting to feel
emotional about it. And
"clamor."

590
00:26:07,792 --> 00:26:09,792
Now you're conflicted.
And "slander."

591
00:26:09,833 --> 00:26:11,500
It means you're
arguing with them,

592
00:26:11,583 --> 00:26:15,208
or maybe you're speaking
ill about them, gossiping,

593
00:26:15,292 --> 00:26:17,833
"to be put away
from, you along with all
malice."

594
00:26:17,875 --> 00:26:20,333
And this is different ways
that we hurt each other.

595
00:26:20,375 --> 00:26:23,500
"I'm going to make you suffer.
I'm going to make you feel it.

596
00:26:23,583 --> 00:26:25,000
I'm going to make you pay."

597
00:26:25,083 --> 00:26:28,000
And all of that's a denial of
the gospel of Jesus Christ.

598
00:26:28,083 --> 00:26:30,500
"Well, didn't he suffer?
Wasn't he shamed?

599
00:26:30,583 --> 00:26:33,167
Didn't he die?
Hasn't he already paid?"

600
00:26:33,250 --> 00:26:35,417
"Yes, but that's not enough.

601
00:26:35,500 --> 00:26:38,875
I'm going to make
them pay, as well."

602
00:26:38,958 --> 00:26:43,083
And that's what
bitter people do.

603
00:26:46,167 --> 00:26:52,708
Relationships, marriages,
they invariably get bitter,

604
00:26:52,792 --> 00:26:55,333
or they get better.

605
00:26:55,375 --> 00:26:59,083
And I would say this is the one
issue that affected our marriage

606
00:26:59,167 --> 00:27:02,625
most negatively for
the longest period of time,

607
00:27:02,667 --> 00:27:07,125
that I felt sinned
against by Grace.

608
00:27:07,167 --> 00:27:13,000
And rather than forgiving
her, I was bitter.

609
00:27:13,083 --> 00:27:14,417
I was bitter.

610
00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:17,417
This was the one thing that hurt
our marriage the most

611
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:19,500
for the longest period of time.

612
00:27:19,542 --> 00:27:21,917
And as I've said before,
and I'll say it again,

613
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,333
it affected my tone.

614
00:27:23,375 --> 00:27:25,833
The bitterness would come out
even in preaching and teaching,

615
00:27:25,875 --> 00:27:28,500
on how sometimes I
would speak about women.

616
00:27:28,542 --> 00:27:30,125
I'll always regret that.

617
00:27:30,167 --> 00:27:32,292
I deeply grieve that.

618
00:27:32,333 --> 00:27:37,583
I ask your forgiveness for that.

619
00:27:37,667 --> 00:27:39,667
And it was bitterness.

620
00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:41,875
And at the time,
what I would've said is,

621
00:27:41,958 --> 00:27:44,375
"Well, if something bad was
done, and, yeah, I'm bitter,

622
00:27:44,458 --> 00:27:46,208
but, you know,
something bad was done."

623
00:27:46,292 --> 00:27:50,833
And I didn't realize that my
not forgiving was also a sin

624
00:27:50,875 --> 00:27:53,917
and that I wasn't just one who
had been sinned against,

625
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,500
but I was one who was sinning,

626
00:27:57,542 --> 00:28:00,500
and that it wasn't just
a problem I had with Grace,

627
00:28:00,583 --> 00:28:03,083
it was a problem
I had with Jesus,

628
00:28:03,167 --> 00:28:05,000
and that's exactly
where Paul goes.

629
00:28:05,042 --> 00:28:08,000
"Be kind to one another,
tenderhearted--"

630
00:28:08,042 --> 00:28:10,500
It's going to take
the Holy Spirit to do that

631
00:28:10,542 --> 00:28:12,125
in a fight, right?

632
00:28:12,167 --> 00:28:14,208
"Be kind to one another,
tenderhearted,

633
00:28:14,292 --> 00:28:20,375
forgiving one another,
as God in Christ forgave you."

634
00:28:20,458 --> 00:28:23,708
Here's what happens for those of
us who struggle with bitterness.

635
00:28:23,792 --> 00:28:25,417
And I can tell you this, today.

636
00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:27,417
The reason we put
this in the book,

637
00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:30,417
the reason I'm telling you
this today is I'm not bitter.

638
00:28:30,500 --> 00:28:31,833
Okay?

639
00:28:31,875 --> 00:28:34,000
And it is better.

640
00:28:34,083 --> 00:28:35,708
And Grace has
repented of her sin,

641
00:28:35,792 --> 00:28:38,292
and I've repented of
my sin of bitterness.

642
00:28:38,333 --> 00:28:41,417
And Jesus died for it, so we
don't need to kill one another.

643
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:43,333
And Jesus scorned
the shame for it,

644
00:28:43,375 --> 00:28:45,333
so we don't need to
shame one another.

645
00:28:45,375 --> 00:28:49,000
And Jesus rose from death,
and so there's new life for us.

646
00:28:49,083 --> 00:28:52,500
And I want you to have
a relationship that's better

647
00:28:52,542 --> 00:28:53,875
and not bitter.

648
00:28:53,958 --> 00:28:55,875
And having been
someone who was bitter,

649
00:28:55,958 --> 00:29:00,875
I can tell you it
is death causing.

650
00:29:00,958 --> 00:29:03,833
And you can be biblically
sound, and serving the Lord,

651
00:29:03,875 --> 00:29:08,208
and even fruitful,
and still bitter.

652
00:29:08,292 --> 00:29:11,833
And, ultimately,
those who are bitter,

653
00:29:11,875 --> 00:29:14,833
they, generally,
have been sinned against.

654
00:29:14,875 --> 00:29:17,500
So, if you go to a bitter
person, and you say,

655
00:29:17,542 --> 00:29:18,875
"I think you're bitter."

656
00:29:18,958 --> 00:29:20,375
They'll say,
"Oh, yeah, I'm bitter,

657
00:29:20,458 --> 00:29:22,875
"and here's what they did,
and here's what they said,

658
00:29:22,958 --> 00:29:24,375
"and here's what
they didn't do,

659
00:29:24,458 --> 00:29:25,875
and here's what
they didn't say."

660
00:29:25,958 --> 00:29:28,375
And all of a sudden,
the archaeological dig kicks in,

661
00:29:28,458 --> 00:29:30,875
and they're pulling up all
the ancient artifacts to show,

662
00:29:30,958 --> 00:29:33,083
"Well, here's all the evidence.
Of course I'm bitter."

663
00:29:33,167 --> 00:29:34,583
You may have been
sinned against.

664
00:29:34,667 --> 00:29:36,583
You may have
a reason to be angry.

665
00:29:36,667 --> 00:29:38,583
You may have
a reason to feel hurt.

666
00:29:38,667 --> 00:29:41,333
And oftentimes, it's not because
of the degree of the offense,

667
00:29:41,375 --> 00:29:43,000
but the proximity of
the offender; meaning,

668
00:29:43,083 --> 00:29:44,792
if a total stranger
does something terrible,

669
00:29:44,833 --> 00:29:47,292
in 10 years, you're probably
not going to be obsessing

670
00:29:47,333 --> 00:29:49,125
over it
every minute of every day.

671
00:29:49,167 --> 00:29:52,000
But if it's somebody that you
loved and trusted and gave

672
00:29:52,042 --> 00:29:55,000
access to your heart and life,
and they do something that is

673
00:29:55,083 --> 00:29:58,000
perhaps not that grievous,
it hurts more deeply,

674
00:29:58,083 --> 00:30:00,833
because you love
them more intimately.

675
00:30:00,875 --> 00:30:03,625
So, we're most likely to become
embittered against the people

676
00:30:03,667 --> 00:30:07,875
that we love the most; and, yes,
friends, this can include God.

677
00:30:07,958 --> 00:30:12,292
Now, bitterness against God, we
know, theologically, is a sin,

678
00:30:12,333 --> 00:30:14,708
because if we're bitter against
God, what we're saying is,

679
00:30:14,792 --> 00:30:16,125
"God, you're evil.

680
00:30:16,167 --> 00:30:18,333
You've sinned against me,
and I don't forgive you."

681
00:30:18,375 --> 00:30:20,625
Theologically, we know,
okay, God's not a sinner.

682
00:30:20,667 --> 00:30:23,333
God is good, not evil;
light, not darkness.

683
00:30:23,375 --> 00:30:27,000
God doesn't apologize,
because God doesn't do wrong.

684
00:30:27,083 --> 00:30:30,208
But, emotionally,
we can feel that way.

685
00:30:30,292 --> 00:30:33,333
And sometimes Satan will even
come in and try and trick you,

686
00:30:33,375 --> 00:30:36,208
and he'll take things that
sinners did, or that he did,

687
00:30:36,292 --> 00:30:37,625
and blame it on God,

688
00:30:37,667 --> 00:30:40,708
so that you'll become bitter
against God.

689
00:30:40,792 --> 00:30:42,292
Don't.

690
00:30:42,333 --> 00:30:44,833
Repent of bitterness as
a sin; particularly repent of

691
00:30:44,875 --> 00:30:46,875
bitterness against God as a sin.

692
00:30:46,958 --> 00:30:50,333
And some of you say, "Why?
They did a horrible thing."

693
00:30:50,375 --> 00:30:54,500
Ah, "as God in Christ
forgave you."

694
00:30:54,583 --> 00:30:57,000
Aren't you glad that Jesus
didn't come to the earth

695
00:30:57,042 --> 00:31:00,917
with a mission to execute
vengeance out of bitterness?

696
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,208
Are you glad that,
right now, high and exalted,

697
00:31:03,292 --> 00:31:05,000
resurrected from death,
seated on a throne,

698
00:31:05,083 --> 00:31:08,125
the Lord Jesus Christ is not
making plans to destroy you

699
00:31:08,167 --> 00:31:11,500
out of bitterness?

700
00:31:11,583 --> 00:31:16,417
Jesus comes, and he
lives without sin,

701
00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:19,625
and no person who's ever walked
the earth was sinned against

702
00:31:19,667 --> 00:31:23,417
more continually, grievously,
and wrongly than Jesus.

703
00:31:23,500 --> 00:31:26,083
And he goes to the cross,
and what he says is,

704
00:31:26,167 --> 00:31:31,708
"Father, I--"
or, "Father, forgive them.

705
00:31:31,792 --> 00:31:35,417
Father, forgive them."

706
00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:39,125
And then Jesus makes
forgiveness possible.

707
00:31:39,167 --> 00:31:43,292
He suffers, he's shamed,
he bleeds, he dies,

708
00:31:43,333 --> 00:31:45,833
he's the one who forgives.

709
00:31:45,875 --> 00:31:47,875
And as a Christian,
it's hypocrisy to say,

710
00:31:47,958 --> 00:31:50,625
"Jesus, forgive me of my
sin; but, Jesus,

711
00:31:50,667 --> 00:31:53,000
"I won't forgive
them of their sin.

712
00:31:53,083 --> 00:31:56,208
"Because, Jesus, my sin against
you is not nearly as bad as

713
00:31:56,292 --> 00:31:59,833
their sin against me."

714
00:31:59,875 --> 00:32:02,833
To receive forgiveness and not
give forgiveness is the essence

715
00:32:02,875 --> 00:32:07,292
of hypocrisy, and it's putting
yourself, friends--

716
00:32:07,333 --> 00:32:12,125
take it, as one who's guilty,
okay, who has been guilty--

717
00:32:12,167 --> 00:32:15,583
it puts you
in the seat of God.

718
00:32:15,667 --> 00:32:18,125
"Forgiven. Not forgiven."

719
00:32:18,167 --> 00:32:21,667
That's God's job, not ours.

720
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:26,375
Our job is to forgive and leave
them to the judgment of God,

721
00:32:26,458 --> 00:32:31,333
not to judge them as God.

722
00:32:31,375 --> 00:32:33,833
Who are you bitter against?

723
00:32:33,875 --> 00:32:36,375
What are you bitter about?

724
00:32:36,458 --> 00:32:38,500
Who have you not forgiven?

725
00:32:38,542 --> 00:32:40,000
What have you not forgiven?

726
00:32:40,042 --> 00:32:45,125
And I'm not saying this is
easy, but I'm saying it's vital.

727
00:32:45,167 --> 00:32:48,208
Even just before this sermon,
I was talking to a woman whose

728
00:32:48,292 --> 00:32:51,417
husband was a Christian leader,
and committed adultery,

729
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:55,625
and ran off, and married another
woman, and destroyed the family,

730
00:32:55,667 --> 00:32:59,625
and she has to deal
with this every day.

731
00:32:59,667 --> 00:33:02,000
She said, "I'm bitter."

732
00:33:02,083 --> 00:33:04,333
Okay.

733
00:33:04,375 --> 00:33:07,500
Then journal it out, think it
out, talk it out, pray it out.

734
00:33:07,583 --> 00:33:10,333
Write a letter to him.

735
00:33:10,375 --> 00:33:12,792
Have it soaked in tears.

736
00:33:12,833 --> 00:33:17,500
Even if you never send it,
prayerfully, carefully,

737
00:33:17,583 --> 00:33:20,375
work it through with Jesus.

738
00:33:20,458 --> 00:33:24,333
Talk it through with Jesus.

739
00:33:24,375 --> 00:33:26,708
Who do you need to forgive?

740
00:33:26,792 --> 00:33:28,917
It takes a sinner to repent.

741
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,792
It takes a victim to forgive.

742
00:33:30,833 --> 00:33:33,208
It takes two people
to reconcile.

743
00:33:33,292 --> 00:33:36,000
The only way your relationship
is going to be enduring

744
00:33:36,042 --> 00:33:39,417
and endearing is if repentance
of sin and forgiveness of sin

745
00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:43,500
are practiced; otherwise,
it will not get better.

746
00:33:43,583 --> 00:33:44,917
It will get bitter.

747
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,500
Now, for those of you who have
questions about forgiveness,

748
00:33:47,583 --> 00:33:50,583
there are three that I get most
common, and I'll answer them.

749
00:33:50,667 --> 00:33:53,375
Number one, forgiveness is
not waiting for someone

750
00:33:53,458 --> 00:33:55,500
to acknowledge their sin,
apologize, and repent.

751
00:33:55,583 --> 00:33:57,500
Some of you say,
"I will forgive them

752
00:33:57,583 --> 00:33:59,292
as soon as they
say they're sorry."

753
00:33:59,333 --> 00:34:01,333
They may never.

754
00:34:01,375 --> 00:34:04,625
They may die
and never apologize.

755
00:34:04,667 --> 00:34:10,667
And so your forgiveness is not
predicated on their repentance.

756
00:34:12,292 --> 00:34:15,333
In forgiving them, you're
leaving them to God's judgment,

757
00:34:15,375 --> 00:34:19,167
and you're guarding your own
heart against bitterness.

758
00:34:19,250 --> 00:34:22,375
Number two, forgiveness
is not a one-time event.

759
00:34:22,458 --> 00:34:25,167
It's not like, "Well, I forgave
them, and now we're done."

760
00:34:25,250 --> 00:34:28,208
The truth is they
may do it again.

761
00:34:28,292 --> 00:34:31,625
The truth is you
may forgive them,

762
00:34:31,667 --> 00:34:35,917
and then something triggers
emotionally those feelings again

763
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,000
of betrayal, or hurt, or loss.

764
00:34:39,083 --> 00:34:41,208
And you realize,
"Wow, it's kind of coming back.

765
00:34:41,292 --> 00:34:44,333
I've got to forgive them again."

766
00:34:44,375 --> 00:34:47,083
You may still feel
it on occasion.

767
00:34:47,167 --> 00:34:49,625
If you're obsessing over it,
you're probably still bitter.

768
00:34:49,667 --> 00:34:52,417
But if it comes up
once in a while,

769
00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:54,708
that doesn't mean you've
not forgiven them.

770
00:34:54,792 --> 00:34:57,417
It just means that you
need to forgive them again.

771
00:34:57,500 --> 00:35:00,208
And some of you say, "But
doesn't God forget our sin?"

772
00:35:00,292 --> 00:35:02,208
Well, the Bible says
in the Old Testament

773
00:35:02,292 --> 00:35:04,625
that God remembers
our sin no more.

774
00:35:04,667 --> 00:35:07,500
But what that doesn't mean
is that God has a bad memory.

775
00:35:07,583 --> 00:35:09,875
God is all-knowing.
He remembers everything.

776
00:35:09,958 --> 00:35:12,167
He's omniscient.
It's one of his attributes.

777
00:35:12,250 --> 00:35:14,708
When it says that God
remembers our sin no more,

778
00:35:14,792 --> 00:35:17,833
it means that he doesn't deal
with us in light of them,

779
00:35:17,875 --> 00:35:20,500
but in light of Jesus, and he
doesn't cause that

780
00:35:20,583 --> 00:35:22,208
to be our identity.

781
00:35:22,292 --> 00:35:25,417
Instead, he loves
and pursues us.

782
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:29,500
And, number three, forgiveness
is not reconciliation.

783
00:35:29,542 --> 00:35:31,833
If they've abused you,
and they've not repented

784
00:35:31,875 --> 00:35:35,417
and gotten help,
you can't trust them.

785
00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:38,125
If they've not apologized, are
not willing to work on it,

786
00:35:38,167 --> 00:35:41,500
then you may have your hand
of friendship extended,

787
00:35:41,542 --> 00:35:45,167
but until they have repented,
reconciliation is not possible.

788
00:35:45,250 --> 00:35:46,708
Repentance takes one.

789
00:35:46,792 --> 00:35:48,208
Forgiveness takes one.

790
00:35:48,292 --> 00:35:50,708
Reconciliation takes two.

791
00:35:50,792 --> 00:35:53,708
So, the goal is to do your
part, to pray for them.

792
00:35:53,792 --> 00:35:57,625
And you know you're not bitter
when you want good for them.

793
00:35:57,667 --> 00:35:59,958
When you're saying, "Man,
I hope they come around.

794
00:36:00,083 --> 00:36:01,417
"I hope they change.

795
00:36:01,500 --> 00:36:03,708
I hope their future is
better than their past,"

796
00:36:03,792 --> 00:36:05,792
then you know that
you're not bitter,

797
00:36:05,833 --> 00:36:08,292
but you really have forgiven
them, and you love them,

798
00:36:08,333 --> 00:36:09,792
and you want good for them,

799
00:36:09,833 --> 00:36:12,125
as God in Christ
has been good to you.

800
00:36:12,167 --> 00:36:14,125
And so Hebrews
says it this way.

801
00:36:14,167 --> 00:36:17,792
Hebrews says to dig up the root
of bitterness, to dig it up.

802
00:36:17,833 --> 00:36:20,833
So, today, if you're here with
someone you've sinned against,

803
00:36:20,875 --> 00:36:22,375
repent to them.

804
00:36:22,458 --> 00:36:24,375
If there's someone that
God brings to mind,

805
00:36:24,458 --> 00:36:26,375
that you've sinned against,
and they're not here,

806
00:36:26,458 --> 00:36:28,208
find them and repent to them.

807
00:36:28,292 --> 00:36:33,000
If you've been sinned against,
forgive them, forgive them.

808
00:36:33,083 --> 00:36:36,833
And that is the process by
which we dig up the root of

809
00:36:36,875 --> 00:36:41,833
bitterness, so that the fruit of
the relationship would be life

810
00:36:41,875 --> 00:36:46,833
and not death.

811
00:36:46,875 --> 00:36:49,708
What we'll do at this point
is we'll do some

812
00:36:49,792 --> 00:36:52,083
specific applications.

813
00:36:52,167 --> 00:36:55,417
And so I'm going to go get
my friend, my wife, Grace,

814
00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:59,667
and we'll take some
of your questions.

815
00:37:04,500 --> 00:37:06,417
All right, you ready?

816
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:09,833
I guess it doesn't
matter at this point.

817
00:37:09,875 --> 00:37:12,208
No.

818
00:37:12,292 --> 00:37:16,500
I think, I think,
theologically,

819
00:37:16,542 --> 00:37:20,000
these things make sense,
and then with people there are

820
00:37:20,083 --> 00:37:23,625
practically some variables
and issues and complexities,

821
00:37:23,667 --> 00:37:27,833
and so we'll see if we can
help and answer some questions.

822
00:37:27,875 --> 00:37:33,292
So, we'll start
with the first one.

823
00:37:33,333 --> 00:37:37,375
"How do I bring up my sin
without starting a fight?"

824
00:37:37,458 --> 00:37:38,792
You should answer that.

825
00:37:38,833 --> 00:37:42,792
I think you're better
at that than me.

826
00:37:44,458 --> 00:37:47,500
I think just doing
that--I think, for me,

827
00:37:47,583 --> 00:37:50,375
I've learned to always pray
before I bring anything up,

828
00:37:50,458 --> 00:37:53,000
whether it's my sin
or someone else's sin,

829
00:37:53,083 --> 00:37:56,083
and just ask the Lord to give
me a soft heart

830
00:37:56,167 --> 00:37:58,917
and not an accusatory heart
or a bitter heart,

831
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,125
and that God would--
the Holy Spirit would actually

832
00:38:03,167 --> 00:38:05,333
guide my words
and give me the words,

833
00:38:05,375 --> 00:38:07,375
because I don't need to
necessarily always say

834
00:38:07,458 --> 00:38:09,917
what's on my
mind, everything,

835
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,417
but I need to ask for the things
that would be the most helpful

836
00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:16,000
and give grace to
the person that's hearing.

837
00:38:16,042 --> 00:38:18,625
Talking about our sin
is really that clear.

838
00:38:18,667 --> 00:38:21,625
I think sometimes we like to
make it more difficult than it

839
00:38:21,667 --> 00:38:25,167
actually is, because it's pretty
humbling to talk about our sin,

840
00:38:25,250 --> 00:38:28,833
but I would start
even just saying,

841
00:38:28,875 --> 00:38:31,125
"I'd love to have
a conversation,

842
00:38:31,167 --> 00:38:36,375
"because my sin is troubling me,
and I've been praying about it,

843
00:38:36,458 --> 00:38:39,792
"and I have felt like I need
to come to you

844
00:38:39,833 --> 00:38:41,208
"and talk to you about this.

845
00:38:41,292 --> 00:38:45,000
So, I want to tell you my sin
and see how I've hurt you."

846
00:38:45,083 --> 00:38:48,583
Ask questions so that they
can feel free to respond,

847
00:38:48,667 --> 00:38:50,500
and be willing to listen.

848
00:38:50,583 --> 00:38:53,000
I think that's something
important that I had to learn

849
00:38:53,083 --> 00:38:56,417
was I couldn't just put my sin
out there and then not let Mark

850
00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:59,875
respond to it, even if it was
hard to hear sometimes in those

851
00:38:59,958 --> 00:39:02,875
initial phases of learning
how to talk about sin.

852
00:39:02,958 --> 00:39:06,208
I still needed to receive that
and be willing to see that there

853
00:39:06,292 --> 00:39:09,375
was some pain that I caused,
and I needed to repent of that,

854
00:39:09,458 --> 00:39:11,125
as well, not just
the sin itself,

855
00:39:11,167 --> 00:39:13,333
but the pain that I
caused through that sin.

856
00:39:13,375 --> 00:39:15,000
How about preparing
for that conversation?

857
00:39:15,083 --> 00:39:17,000
So, okay, there's
things I want to say,

858
00:39:17,083 --> 00:39:18,792
and I want to say them right.

859
00:39:18,833 --> 00:39:20,292
What's a good way to prepare?

860
00:39:20,333 --> 00:39:22,000
Like I said,
praying, and, for me,

861
00:39:22,083 --> 00:39:27,292
I journal out either my sins or
my fears and confessing the sin.

862
00:39:27,333 --> 00:39:30,083
Sometimes I have to
journal those out, as well,

863
00:39:30,167 --> 00:39:32,500
because that can
be a sin for me,

864
00:39:32,542 --> 00:39:36,125
is fear of man instead of doing
what the Lord has asked me to do

865
00:39:36,167 --> 00:39:37,500
in repentance.

866
00:39:37,583 --> 00:39:40,417
So, journaling helps me have
kind of more directives,

867
00:39:40,500 --> 00:39:43,417
as far as what I
want to discuss.

868
00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:46,125
And I would say, too,
pick a time and a place

869
00:39:46,167 --> 00:39:48,000
that's private.

870
00:39:48,042 --> 00:39:50,875
You know, if it's late at night,
probably not the best.

871
00:39:50,958 --> 00:39:53,500
If the kids are running
around, probably not the best.

872
00:39:53,542 --> 00:39:56,125
It's finding a place where
there's time and place that's

873
00:39:56,167 --> 00:39:59,000
a little more safeguarded
and protected,

874
00:39:59,083 --> 00:40:02,125
so that you can have an honest
conversation without a lot of

875
00:40:02,167 --> 00:40:04,500
disruption or being hurried.

876
00:40:04,583 --> 00:40:07,583
And so depending upon
the severity of the issue,

877
00:40:07,667 --> 00:40:09,583
it's even planning
that, saying,

878
00:40:09,667 --> 00:40:11,792
"Okay, I need to talk to
you about something.

879
00:40:11,833 --> 00:40:14,500
"So, when's a good time,
and where could we do that,

880
00:40:14,583 --> 00:40:16,000
and how could we do that?"

881
00:40:16,083 --> 00:40:17,708
Because sometimes
the fight comes out of,

882
00:40:17,792 --> 00:40:20,500
"Man, the kids are in the room.
We just got home.

883
00:40:20,542 --> 00:40:21,875
"We've only got 15 minutes.

884
00:40:21,958 --> 00:40:23,292
"You just dropped this bomb,

885
00:40:23,333 --> 00:40:26,000
and it's a little hard to pick
it up right now."

886
00:40:26,042 --> 00:40:27,708
And so even being considerate,
because sometimes

887
00:40:27,792 --> 00:40:30,583
when we're feeling convicted,
we want to talk about it,

888
00:40:30,667 --> 00:40:34,000
and we want to get it out there,
and sometimes we just need to;

889
00:40:34,042 --> 00:40:37,000
but sometimes the best thing is
to say, "Okay, let's get there.

890
00:40:37,042 --> 00:40:39,500
What's the best time and way
to have this conversation?"

891
00:40:39,542 --> 00:40:41,917
And then prepare for it.

892
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,292
So, we'll go on to
the next one, sweet.

893
00:40:45,333 --> 00:40:48,292
"What should I do, as a wife,
when my husband just keeps

894
00:40:48,333 --> 00:40:52,333
saying, 'Sorry,' but never
shows any visible change?"

895
00:40:52,375 --> 00:40:54,500
Well, I mean,
it's a good analogy of what

896
00:40:54,583 --> 00:40:56,000
you talked about.

897
00:40:56,083 --> 00:40:57,792
You can either
choose to be bitter,

898
00:40:57,833 --> 00:41:00,583
or you can choose to keep
forgiving, as Christ has done,

899
00:41:00,667 --> 00:41:03,833
and it can be a very painful
thing to see that someone isn't

900
00:41:03,875 --> 00:41:08,125
really sorry for their sin, and
they just keep repeating it.

901
00:41:08,167 --> 00:41:12,000
I mean, I know that you've
had that experience with me,

902
00:41:12,083 --> 00:41:13,833
and I've had that experience
with you

903
00:41:13,875 --> 00:41:16,417
through our years of marriage,
almost 20 years of marriage,

904
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:19,625
so that we've had a lot of those
years where we just think,

905
00:41:19,667 --> 00:41:21,125
"They keep saying
they're sorry,

906
00:41:21,167 --> 00:41:22,625
and they're not changing."

907
00:41:22,667 --> 00:41:25,625
For me, I know I had to
grow in my prayer life,

908
00:41:25,667 --> 00:41:29,625
and also I had to ask myself,
"Do I really trust God

909
00:41:29,667 --> 00:41:31,500
"to change this person?

910
00:41:31,583 --> 00:41:33,917
"And in the process,
am I willing to change,

911
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,208
"so that I can be a safer place
for this person to repent,

912
00:41:37,292 --> 00:41:41,417
"so that you can trust me and
trust that I'm going to forgive

913
00:41:41,500 --> 00:41:45,625
you, if you do choose to repent,
if your heart does soften?"

914
00:41:45,667 --> 00:41:49,708
So, for me, it was God saying
my heart needed to be softened,

915
00:41:49,792 --> 00:41:53,167
and I needed to forgive,
no matter what.

916
00:41:53,250 --> 00:41:57,792
For me, also, the twist was
that somehow I saw Mark's sin

917
00:41:57,833 --> 00:41:59,667
as worse than mine.

918
00:41:59,750 --> 00:42:02,417
And so God dropped that
bomb on me, when he said,

919
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:03,833
"Wait a second.

920
00:42:03,875 --> 00:42:07,333
Your sin is just as ugly to
me as you think his sin is."

921
00:42:07,375 --> 00:42:10,208
And then I kind of fell
to my knees at that point.

922
00:42:10,292 --> 00:42:13,333
It was a big transition
in my view of repentance

923
00:42:13,375 --> 00:42:15,125
at that point.

924
00:42:15,167 --> 00:42:18,500
And when I started to see that,
that my sin is horrid

925
00:42:18,583 --> 00:42:21,000
to the Lord, but, yet,
he still forgives,

926
00:42:21,083 --> 00:42:24,000
if I'm willing to repent,
then I had a different heart

927
00:42:24,083 --> 00:42:27,625
for Mark's sin and for other
people in my life.

928
00:42:27,667 --> 00:42:31,500
And I would say, too, this is
part of the beauty of being

929
00:42:31,583 --> 00:42:35,208
part of a church, is that
the woman can say,

930
00:42:35,292 --> 00:42:37,375
"Honey, I know you say
you're sorry.

931
00:42:37,458 --> 00:42:40,417
"I want you to talk to
godly men in the church,

932
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:43,792
"or a Community Group
leader, a pastor, an elder,

933
00:42:43,833 --> 00:42:45,667
"one of the leaders.

934
00:42:45,750 --> 00:42:49,417
"You know, I agree that
this is a problem.

935
00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:51,792
"I acknowledge that
you've said you're sorry.

936
00:42:51,833 --> 00:42:53,500
"I'm not going to
judge your heart.

937
00:42:53,583 --> 00:42:56,833
"I think you're sincere, but it
seems like it keeps happening,

938
00:42:56,875 --> 00:42:58,792
"and we're stuck.

939
00:42:58,833 --> 00:43:01,500
"And maybe I'm not
the most helpful.

940
00:43:01,583 --> 00:43:04,708
"Maybe another man would be
helpful, a guy who could,

941
00:43:04,792 --> 00:43:07,625
"you know, speak the truth,
and get to the bottom line,

942
00:43:07,667 --> 00:43:10,667
"and be a friend, and provide
accountability in a real loving,

943
00:43:10,750 --> 00:43:12,833
not a legalistic way."

944
00:43:12,875 --> 00:43:16,500
And this is where your marriage
is in the context of a church,

945
00:43:16,583 --> 00:43:19,833
and part of the blessing of
being in the church is that

946
00:43:19,875 --> 00:43:22,167
other people can help.

947
00:43:22,250 --> 00:43:24,833
And sometimes the husband will
hear men differently than he

948
00:43:24,875 --> 00:43:27,708
hears his wife, and sometimes
the wife will hear the ladies

949
00:43:27,792 --> 00:43:29,708
different than she
hears her husband,

950
00:43:29,792 --> 00:43:31,500
and this is where
Community Groups,

951
00:43:31,583 --> 00:43:33,375
and friendship,
and community, and honesty,

952
00:43:33,458 --> 00:43:35,292
and even leadership
in the church

953
00:43:35,333 --> 00:43:36,708
can be really helpful.

954
00:43:36,792 --> 00:43:40,417
And so for the men, who this
is their situation or story,

955
00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:42,125
talk to other men.

956
00:43:42,167 --> 00:43:43,625
They could be helpful.

957
00:43:43,667 --> 00:43:45,125
And for the wives,
not naggingly,

958
00:43:45,167 --> 00:43:48,000
but just lovingly saying,
"Is there a good godly man

959
00:43:48,042 --> 00:43:51,083
"that you could talk to that
could be helpful?

960
00:43:51,167 --> 00:43:53,625
"Because we need help,
and I'm here to help,

961
00:43:53,667 --> 00:43:56,000
but I think a man
would be helpful, too."

962
00:43:56,083 --> 00:43:59,125
And that would be my
encouragement, for sure.

963
00:43:59,167 --> 00:44:02,917
Let's do another one, sweet.

964
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,792
"How do you forgive when someone
is actively pursuing to hurt

965
00:44:05,833 --> 00:44:08,792
you? When there is no rest?"

966
00:44:08,833 --> 00:44:11,500
Yeah, and that's where I would
say there's a difference between

967
00:44:11,583 --> 00:44:13,125
forgiveness and reconciliation.

968
00:44:13,167 --> 00:44:15,167
Like I said,
forgiveness takes one.

969
00:44:15,250 --> 00:44:17,333
Reconciliation takes two.

970
00:44:17,375 --> 00:44:19,708
And if they're still
doing evil, and sinning,

971
00:44:19,792 --> 00:44:23,667
and maybe even dangerous,
you're not saying it's okay.

972
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:25,500
You're not agreeing with it.

973
00:44:25,542 --> 00:44:27,208
You're not excusing it.

974
00:44:27,292 --> 00:44:29,500
You can forgive someone
and call the police

975
00:44:29,583 --> 00:44:31,000
and have them arrested.

976
00:44:31,042 --> 00:44:32,875
It's not neglecting justice.

977
00:44:32,958 --> 00:44:35,292
You can forgive someone
and testify in court

978
00:44:35,333 --> 00:44:36,792
that they've committed a crime.

979
00:44:36,833 --> 00:44:40,417
I mean, so forgiving someone
is not saying, "I trust you,

980
00:44:40,500 --> 00:44:45,625
and I agree with you, and I'm
vulnerable to you," at all.

981
00:44:45,667 --> 00:44:50,292
It's simply saying,
"I am choosing to forgive,

982
00:44:50,333 --> 00:44:52,417
"as God in Christ
has forgiven me,

983
00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:54,708
"and I'm going to
leave you to the Lord.

984
00:44:54,792 --> 00:44:56,917
"I might leave you to
the law, the authorities.

985
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,792
"I might go get
a restraining order.

986
00:44:58,833 --> 00:45:01,333
"I want good for you.
I want you to change.

987
00:45:01,375 --> 00:45:04,000
"I don't trust you, and I
don't feel safe with you,

988
00:45:04,042 --> 00:45:06,208
"and I'm not going to
be vulnerable with you,

989
00:45:06,292 --> 00:45:08,375
but that doesn't mean
I'm bitter against you."

990
00:45:08,458 --> 00:45:10,167
See the difference?

991
00:45:10,250 --> 00:45:11,625
And it's hoping,
trusting, praying,

992
00:45:11,667 --> 00:45:14,000
that in the grace of
God they do change.

993
00:45:14,083 --> 00:45:16,208
But I think sometimes
the naivety in Christianity is,

994
00:45:16,292 --> 00:45:19,375
"Well, if I forgive them, then
they need to be close to me."

995
00:45:19,458 --> 00:45:20,792
No, no.

996
00:45:20,833 --> 00:45:24,500
I mean, if this is your abuser,
or they've harmed your kids,

997
00:45:24,583 --> 00:45:26,708
just because they say they're
sorry doesn't mean

998
00:45:26,792 --> 00:45:28,333
they're yet safe.

999
00:45:28,375 --> 00:45:30,208
And if they've never
said they're sorry,

1000
00:45:30,292 --> 00:45:32,000
they're definitely not safe.

1001
00:45:32,042 --> 00:45:34,708
And so forgiveness
comes in a moment.

1002
00:45:34,792 --> 00:45:37,625
Trust and reconciliation
takes time,

1003
00:45:37,667 --> 00:45:40,625
depending upon how dangerous
the person is and how bad

1004
00:45:40,667 --> 00:45:43,417
the situation is.

1005
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:45,833
Yeah, I don't know if
you'd add anything to that.

1006
00:45:45,875 --> 00:45:48,292
Okay, next one.

1007
00:45:48,333 --> 00:45:50,917
"If my husband and I are
struggling through serious sin

1008
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,833
"resulting in very
little intimacy,

1009
00:45:52,875 --> 00:45:55,333
"is it better to not be
together and wait patiently,

1010
00:45:55,375 --> 00:45:59,292
trusting God, or better
to be together anyways?"

1011
00:45:59,333 --> 00:46:03,667
It's the wife asking
the question, so--

1012
00:46:03,750 --> 00:46:05,833
[laughing]

1013
00:46:05,875 --> 00:46:07,833
That's one you can have.

1014
00:46:07,875 --> 00:46:13,208
Thanks.
You're welcome.

1015
00:46:13,292 --> 00:46:15,833
You probably would
say different than me.

1016
00:46:15,875 --> 00:46:17,708
I mean, it really depends.

1017
00:46:17,792 --> 00:46:21,000
I mean, I think you can take
too long of a break; yet,

1018
00:46:21,083 --> 00:46:23,208
there is Scripture that
does say, you know,

1019
00:46:23,292 --> 00:46:26,125
take time to forgive
and work things through,

1020
00:46:26,167 --> 00:46:28,000
but then come back together--

1021
00:46:28,042 --> 00:46:29,708
Yeah, 1 Corinthians 7, yeah.

1022
00:46:29,792 --> 00:46:31,708
So that the enemy
doesn't get a foothold.

1023
00:46:31,792 --> 00:46:33,292
So, it really depends.

1024
00:46:33,333 --> 00:46:36,292
I mean, if it's something that's
been going on a long time

1025
00:46:36,333 --> 00:46:37,667
in your marriage,

1026
00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:40,167
you don't want to
just let that be the crutch

1027
00:46:40,250 --> 00:46:42,167
that says we're not going
to be intimate,

1028
00:46:42,250 --> 00:46:44,500
because we just don't
want to work it out.

1029
00:46:44,583 --> 00:46:47,625
But on the other hand, you don't
want to just be together

1030
00:46:47,667 --> 00:46:50,125
in a fake way.

1031
00:46:50,167 --> 00:46:54,083
I think, for us, we learned
to pray together a lot,

1032
00:46:54,167 --> 00:46:56,292
when we're really
struggling with each other.

1033
00:46:56,333 --> 00:46:59,583
And even when we haven't
fully reconciled,

1034
00:46:59,667 --> 00:47:02,583
we've learned to pray through
those times and ask the Lord

1035
00:47:02,667 --> 00:47:05,583
to use intimacy
and whatever, forgiveness,

1036
00:47:05,667 --> 00:47:09,708
and repentance to really connect
us in a way

1037
00:47:09,792 --> 00:47:12,625
that wouldn't otherwise happen.

1038
00:47:12,667 --> 00:47:15,500
I think if we're willing to
give the Lord that opportunity,

1039
00:47:15,542 --> 00:47:18,625
it is amazing to see what
he does in those moments.

1040
00:47:18,667 --> 00:47:22,583
Yeah, and I would say not
to--not to punt on the question,

1041
00:47:22,667 --> 00:47:25,333
but it kind of depends on
the issue, and the couple,

1042
00:47:25,375 --> 00:47:27,708
and the circumstances.

1043
00:47:27,792 --> 00:47:33,333
You know, if it's porn use,
or it's adultery,

1044
00:47:33,375 --> 00:47:37,708
or spousal sexual assault or,
you know, something like that,

1045
00:47:37,792 --> 00:47:40,917
and you're not feeling
safe, then that's one thing.

1046
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,000
If it's,
"We really annoy each other,

1047
00:47:43,083 --> 00:47:44,833
and we're trying to
work on that,"

1048
00:47:44,875 --> 00:47:47,583
well, maybe that person's
annoying, but not dangerous;

1049
00:47:47,667 --> 00:47:49,375
or maybe you're annoying,
but not dangerous;

1050
00:47:49,458 --> 00:47:51,417
or maybe you're both
annoying, but not dangerous.

1051
00:47:51,500 --> 00:47:54,125
And I would say
then this is where,

1052
00:47:54,167 --> 00:47:55,917
when you can't
resolve something,

1053
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:00,083
this is where you bring in
someone else to help mediate,

1054
00:48:00,167 --> 00:48:02,208
and this is where
a pastor,

1055
00:48:02,292 --> 00:48:05,083
a godly, biblical counselor
comes in, and says,

1056
00:48:05,167 --> 00:48:06,833
"Okay, let's look
at all the variables.

1057
00:48:06,875 --> 00:48:09,000
"Let's ask the questions.
Let's see what's going on.

1058
00:48:09,083 --> 00:48:11,000
"Let's pray and open
the Word of God,

1059
00:48:11,083 --> 00:48:13,333
"and let's see if there's
a wise answer here

1060
00:48:13,375 --> 00:48:15,125
and some good counsel."

1061
00:48:15,167 --> 00:48:19,417
And so what I would hate to do
on a question like this, because

1062
00:48:19,500 --> 00:48:24,875
it calls it "serious sin," so we
can assume it's a big thing.

1063
00:48:24,958 --> 00:48:29,500
Now, all sin has seriousness,
but sometimes the implications

1064
00:48:29,583 --> 00:48:34,000
of sin can be a little
more devastating,

1065
00:48:34,042 --> 00:48:38,333
and so to best serve someone
like this and a couple like

1066
00:48:38,375 --> 00:48:41,625
this, I would say schedule a
meeting with one of the elders

1067
00:48:41,667 --> 00:48:44,417
in the church, or get
a referral to a good, solid,

1068
00:48:44,500 --> 00:48:46,917
biblical counselor, and let's
look at what the issue is,

1069
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,083
and let's see all
the circumstances,

1070
00:48:49,167 --> 00:48:51,833
and let's get the husband
and the wife in the room,

1071
00:48:51,875 --> 00:48:54,333
because Proverbs says everyone
seems right until the other side

1072
00:48:54,375 --> 00:48:57,625
is heard, and the worst way to
do marriage counseling is meet

1073
00:48:57,667 --> 00:49:00,333
with one person in the marriage.

1074
00:49:00,375 --> 00:49:01,833
Get them both in the room.

1075
00:49:01,875 --> 00:49:03,500
Get the whole truth.
Get both sides.

1076
00:49:03,583 --> 00:49:05,708
Figure out the facts,
and then give some counsel.

1077
00:49:05,792 --> 00:49:10,417
So, not to in any way fail
to serve this question,

1078
00:49:10,500 --> 00:49:13,625
but I think the best way to
serve these people is to invite

1079
00:49:13,667 --> 00:49:16,417
them to meet with leadership,
and for the leaders to lovingly

1080
00:49:16,500 --> 00:49:19,083
involve themselves
and care and help.

1081
00:49:19,167 --> 00:49:23,125
And so that would be my counsel.

1082
00:49:23,167 --> 00:49:27,333
Let's do one or two
more, depending on time.

1083
00:49:27,375 --> 00:49:29,500
We'll make this the last one.

1084
00:49:29,583 --> 00:49:32,500
"I know God forgives, but
I cannot forgive myself.

1085
00:49:32,542 --> 00:49:34,500
What do I do?"

1086
00:49:34,583 --> 00:49:38,833
This is a very common statement
that many people make.

1087
00:49:38,875 --> 00:49:41,000
"I know that Jesus
died for my sin.

1088
00:49:41,083 --> 00:49:47,875
I know that he forgives me,
but I can't forgive myself."

1089
00:49:47,958 --> 00:49:53,375
Maybe you comment on it,
and then I'll close it.

1090
00:49:54,958 --> 00:50:00,000
I know this is how I felt,
and it kept me from repenting,

1091
00:50:00,083 --> 00:50:03,792
because I didn't want someone
else--I didn't want you to know

1092
00:50:03,833 --> 00:50:05,917
what I had done,
because, certainly,

1093
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,417
I needed to make up for my sin
somehow before I could actually

1094
00:50:09,500 --> 00:50:12,625
repent of it, which is the
opposite of the gospel of grace

1095
00:50:12,667 --> 00:50:14,333
and forgiveness.

1096
00:50:14,375 --> 00:50:18,000
So, it can keep
you from repenting.

1097
00:50:18,042 --> 00:50:20,625
And deep down
inside, it was pride.

1098
00:50:20,667 --> 00:50:23,875
"Somehow, I can do something
better than God can do

1099
00:50:23,958 --> 00:50:26,333
to forgive myself, so
that he can forgive me."

1100
00:50:26,375 --> 00:50:30,125
It's a very twisted way
of thinking, I realized,

1101
00:50:30,167 --> 00:50:34,208
and so pride was the core of
it, that I could be better than

1102
00:50:34,292 --> 00:50:38,125
God's forgiveness somehow
by figuring a new way.

1103
00:50:38,167 --> 00:50:42,625
Really, it's a matter of getting
on your knees and praying that

1104
00:50:42,667 --> 00:50:47,208
God would humble you and show
you that his death on the cross

1105
00:50:47,292 --> 00:50:48,833
was enough.

1106
00:50:48,875 --> 00:50:51,333
It was more than enough,
and we didn't deserve it,

1107
00:50:51,375 --> 00:50:55,000
and we still don't; but, yet, we
can continue to go to the cross

1108
00:50:55,083 --> 00:50:58,333
and get on our knees and ask
for that same forgiveness.

1109
00:50:58,375 --> 00:51:02,625
So, it's really a change of
theology and how we view God.

1110
00:51:02,667 --> 00:51:05,833
And it usually contributes
to a false gospel, meaning,

1111
00:51:05,875 --> 00:51:08,500
"I know Jesus suffered,
but I need to suffer, too.

1112
00:51:08,542 --> 00:51:11,917
"I know Jesus was shamed, but
I need to be ashamed, too.

1113
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,625
"I know that Jesus wept,
but I need to weep, too.

1114
00:51:14,667 --> 00:51:18,333
I know that Jesus was rejected,
but I need to be rejected, too."

1115
00:51:18,375 --> 00:51:21,000
And what it's saying is,
"Jesus, I really appreciate it,

1116
00:51:21,083 --> 00:51:23,833
but that wasn't quite enough."

1117
00:51:23,875 --> 00:51:26,833
And what it's saying is,
"Jesus, I know you forgive me,

1118
00:51:26,875 --> 00:51:28,375
"and I know you're the Lord,

1119
00:51:28,458 --> 00:51:30,875
"but above you there's
another lord: me.

1120
00:51:30,958 --> 00:51:33,500
"And though you would forgive
me, I don't forgive myself,

1121
00:51:33,583 --> 00:51:36,333
because I'm the highest
lord in my life."

1122
00:51:36,375 --> 00:51:39,833
And so you need to see,
theologically, it's evil.

1123
00:51:39,875 --> 00:51:42,167
Like, Grace said, it's pride.

1124
00:51:42,250 --> 00:51:44,917
It's saying,
"Jesus didn't do enough,

1125
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,000
"and he's not
the highest authority.

1126
00:51:47,083 --> 00:51:50,333
So, I need to do some more and
exercise my own authority."

1127
00:51:50,375 --> 00:51:54,333
And to think that somehow
there's humility in that,

1128
00:51:54,375 --> 00:51:57,833
that there's the gospel of
grace, as you said, sweetheart,

1129
00:51:57,875 --> 00:52:00,500
in that, it's just not there.

1130
00:52:00,583 --> 00:52:04,292
It's just not there, but it's
a lie that Satan will tell you.

1131
00:52:04,333 --> 00:52:07,333
And Jesus says, "Know the truth,
and the truth sets you free."

1132
00:52:07,375 --> 00:52:11,917
And the truth is you're
forgiven by the highest Lord,

1133
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,917
and he suffered, and he was
rejected, and he was shamed,

1134
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:21,333
and he bled, and he died,
and you don't need to,

1135
00:52:21,375 --> 00:52:23,875
because he already
did, and he loves you.

1136
00:52:23,958 --> 00:52:25,667
He really loves you.

1137
00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:27,667
And so--thanks, hon.

1138
00:52:27,750 --> 00:52:32,833
I thank you for
forgiving me of being a--

1139
00:52:32,875 --> 00:52:34,500
It changed our marriage.

1140
00:52:34,583 --> 00:52:36,208
It has changed our marriage.

1141
00:52:36,292 --> 00:52:39,875
I grieve that, but I celebrate
that that's not where we're at,

1142
00:52:39,958 --> 00:52:42,375
and I hope others
can enjoy that.

1143
00:52:42,458 --> 00:52:47,917
So, for those of you who
are now hearing this,

1144
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,125
you need to do
something with it.

1145
00:52:50,167 --> 00:52:51,625
Are you a Christian?

1146
00:52:51,667 --> 00:52:53,833
Have you ever repented
of your sin to Jesus

1147
00:52:53,875 --> 00:52:55,333
and received his forgiveness?

1148
00:52:55,375 --> 00:52:57,000
If not, you need to do that.

1149
00:52:57,083 --> 00:52:58,417
Become a new person,

1150
00:52:58,500 --> 00:53:00,708
not just a better person,
but a new person.

1151
00:53:00,792 --> 00:53:03,417
If you're here with someone that
you've sinned against or you're

1152
00:53:03,500 --> 00:53:05,875
bitter against, you've got to
confess those sins and forgive

1153
00:53:05,958 --> 00:53:09,500
one another, and like James 5:16
says, to pray for one another.

1154
00:53:09,583 --> 00:53:12,500
If they're not here,
you need to pledge before God,

1155
00:53:12,583 --> 00:53:14,833
"I'm going to follow
up with them,

1156
00:53:14,875 --> 00:53:17,333
and I'm going to
repent or forgive."

1157
00:53:17,375 --> 00:53:20,333
If you don't know who your
abuser is or where they're at,

1158
00:53:20,375 --> 00:53:23,333
and you're bitter, journal it
out, pray it out, write it out,

1159
00:53:23,375 --> 00:53:25,500
think it out, work
it out, cry it out,

1160
00:53:25,583 --> 00:53:27,708
so that at least there's
some closure for you.

1161
00:53:27,792 --> 00:53:29,583
We'd encourage that.

1162
00:53:29,667 --> 00:53:32,083
And we're going to give of
our tithes and offerings.

1163
00:53:32,167 --> 00:53:35,417
This is one of the ways we
say we want this message of

1164
00:53:35,500 --> 00:53:37,208
forgiveness to go
out to everybody.

1165
00:53:37,292 --> 00:53:39,708
We want everybody to know about
Jesus and receive forgiveness

1166
00:53:39,792 --> 00:53:41,917
and new life and have
Jesus in the midst

1167
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:43,333
of their relationships.

1168
00:53:43,375 --> 00:53:45,833
We'll take Communion, as well,
and that's where we remember

1169
00:53:45,875 --> 00:53:47,833
the broken body
and shed blood of Jesus.

1170
00:53:47,875 --> 00:53:49,333
That's how we're forgiven.

1171
00:53:49,375 --> 00:53:51,083
And when we take Communion,
we're acknowledging,

1172
00:53:51,167 --> 00:53:53,583
"I'm a forgiven sinner,
and by the grace of God,

1173
00:53:53,667 --> 00:53:55,917
I want to be a forgiving
sinner, as well."

1174
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:57,917
And then we're going
to sing and celebrate.

1175
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,333
It may seem odd,
but we celebrate and sing

1176
00:54:00,375 --> 00:54:01,708
because we're forgiven,

1177
00:54:01,792 --> 00:54:03,917
that the final word is not
condemnation, but salvation.

1178
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,792
Jesus didn't just die, he also
rose, and he hears prayer.

1179
00:54:07,833 --> 00:54:09,208
He forgives sin.

1180
00:54:09,292 --> 00:54:11,500
He reconciles people to
himself and one another.

1181
00:54:11,542 --> 00:54:13,792
And as we sing, that's
what we celebrate.

1182
00:54:13,833 --> 00:54:16,792
And so as they're
collecting the offering,

1183
00:54:16,833 --> 00:54:18,833
we're going to show
you a testimony,

1184
00:54:18,875 --> 00:54:21,625
a very brave testimony of what
this looks like in

1185
00:54:21,667 --> 00:54:24,500
someone's life, and I'll pray
for us right now.

1186
00:54:24,583 --> 00:54:27,208
Father God, I do pray against
the enemy, his servants,

1187
00:54:27,292 --> 00:54:29,000
their works and effects.

1188
00:54:29,083 --> 00:54:32,708
Father God, I thank you that
Grace and I are Christians.

1189
00:54:32,792 --> 00:54:36,417
I thank you that we can
repent of sin and forgive sin,

1190
00:54:36,500 --> 00:54:39,833
and that because of Jesus,
our marriage has gotten better

1191
00:54:39,875 --> 00:54:41,708
instead of bitter.

1192
00:54:41,792 --> 00:54:48,000
God, I regret and confess and
apologize for the times that I

1193
00:54:48,083 --> 00:54:52,125
was not a good, loving head,
and I was not leading

1194
00:54:52,167 --> 00:54:54,708
in a gospel-centered direction.

1195
00:54:54,792 --> 00:54:59,708
But, God, I thank you that
you have come between us,

1196
00:54:59,792 --> 00:55:02,625
and where there was sin and
bitterness, there is now Jesus,

1197
00:55:02,667 --> 00:55:04,833
and forgiveness, and life.

1198
00:55:04,875 --> 00:55:08,500
I thank you that Grace and I are
really near and dear friends.

1199
00:55:08,583 --> 00:55:11,833
I thank you that we really enjoy
each other and that there isn't

1200
00:55:11,875 --> 00:55:14,625
bitterness between us today
and that we're happier

1201
00:55:14,667 --> 00:55:16,083
than we've ever been.

1202
00:55:16,167 --> 00:55:18,917
And I thank you that we're
learning to repent better

1203
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:20,333
and forgive quicker.

1204
00:55:20,375 --> 00:55:22,917
And, God, I pray for
those who would hear this,

1205
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,500
that it wouldn't sound like
a religious lecture from people

1206
00:55:25,583 --> 00:55:28,667
who got it right, but humble
sinners who got it wrong

1207
00:55:28,750 --> 00:55:32,208
and enjoy Jesus' grace
and want that for everyone.

1208
00:55:32,292 --> 00:55:34,917
And so, God, I pray that
the tears that are shed

1209
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,375
and the conversations that
are had would be healing,

1210
00:55:38,458 --> 00:55:40,167
and holy, and helpful.

1211
00:55:40,250 --> 00:55:42,125
And I'm reminded of
Ecclesiastes, God,

1212
00:55:42,167 --> 00:55:45,333
where it says that a sad face
is sometimes good for the heart.

1213
00:55:45,375 --> 00:55:48,000
And so we thank you for
that, in Jesus' good name.

1214
00:55:48,083 --> 00:55:49,500
Amen.

1215
00:55:50,667 --> 00:55:53,000
We were in love
and there was nothing--

1216
00:55:53,083 --> 00:55:57,625
I had never met a man like him.

1217
00:55:57,667 --> 00:55:59,583
We were non-Christians
through all this.

1218
00:55:59,667 --> 00:56:03,917
And so, for us, we wanted
something more than what we saw

1219
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,167
the world offering
to most people.

1220
00:56:06,250 --> 00:56:10,667
We wanted to be a part of
something dramatic, and unique,

1221
00:56:10,750 --> 00:56:13,833
but the truth is, when
sort of the parties ended,

1222
00:56:13,875 --> 00:56:16,917
and the friends went home,
and it was just her and I,

1223
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,208
it was just hard to be married.

1224
00:56:20,292 --> 00:56:22,208
You know, when Angie
and I got married,

1225
00:56:22,292 --> 00:56:25,792
I know for myself,
I was my own god.

1226
00:56:25,833 --> 00:56:28,708
Our marriage really
is disintegrating,

1227
00:56:28,792 --> 00:56:34,375
and I'm not looking for anything

1228
00:56:34,458 --> 00:56:37,417
other than sort of worldly fixes
to fix it.

1229
00:56:37,500 --> 00:56:40,125
But then, all of a sudden,
I get assigned this story,

1230
00:56:40,167 --> 00:56:44,500
as a photographer, to go cover
this pastor at Mars Hill Church,

1231
00:56:44,583 --> 00:56:46,917
and I ended up spending
a couple of weeks

1232
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,417
with Pastor Mark Driscoll,

1233
00:56:48,500 --> 00:56:50,167
and, clearly, God
was doing a work

1234
00:56:50,250 --> 00:56:55,625
and had orchestrated this moment
for me to come to Christ,

1235
00:56:55,667 --> 00:56:57,583
and it was very profound.

1236
00:56:57,667 --> 00:57:01,167
It was at the exact same
time that Thomas got assigned

1237
00:57:01,250 --> 00:57:06,875
to follow Pastor Mark around
that I began having an affair.

1238
00:57:06,958 --> 00:57:10,708
I really felt that
I wanted a divorce,

1239
00:57:10,792 --> 00:57:14,792
but wasn't strong enough
to go through with it.

1240
00:57:14,833 --> 00:57:19,292
I mean, I was telling him
lie, after lie, after lie.

1241
00:57:19,333 --> 00:57:21,875
And he would ask me,
"Are you having an affair?

1242
00:57:21,958 --> 00:57:23,417
"Are you having an affair?

1243
00:57:23,500 --> 00:57:25,083
I could forgive
anything, but that."

1244
00:57:25,167 --> 00:57:27,500
I was meeting with
Pastor Mark on a regular basis,

1245
00:57:27,583 --> 00:57:30,167
just to work on this particular
issue, because he knew, clearly,

1246
00:57:30,250 --> 00:57:32,500
that there was
an issue in our marriage,

1247
00:57:32,542 --> 00:57:34,792
and he was trying to
help me through that.

1248
00:57:34,833 --> 00:57:38,000
Angela wouldn't respond to
really all of the pursuits

1249
00:57:38,083 --> 00:57:42,917
that I was trying to
come at her with.

1250
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,833
And so I got an opportunity
to go to Iraq for a month,

1251
00:57:46,875 --> 00:57:51,583
and I just went to Angela, and
I said, "You know, I love you.

1252
00:57:51,667 --> 00:57:53,125
"I want to be your husband.

1253
00:57:53,167 --> 00:57:56,125
"I want to work through our
marriage, but if you don't,

1254
00:57:56,167 --> 00:57:57,667
"I can't make you.

1255
00:57:57,750 --> 00:58:01,000
"And I'm going to Iraq for
a month, and after I get back,

1256
00:58:01,042 --> 00:58:03,000
we'll see where
the marriage is at."

1257
00:58:03,083 --> 00:58:06,083
And it was really as easy
as coming home and going,

1258
00:58:06,167 --> 00:58:08,083
"Where are you at?

1259
00:58:08,167 --> 00:58:10,208
Do you want a divorce or not?"

1260
00:58:10,292 --> 00:58:13,875
I had decided to
stay in the marriage,

1261
00:58:13,958 --> 00:58:18,792
and Pastor Mark had given
us kind of a layout of,

1262
00:58:18,833 --> 00:58:21,417
"These are some things you can
do to begin working

1263
00:58:21,500 --> 00:58:23,125
on your marriage."

1264
00:58:23,167 --> 00:58:26,000
It involved going to church
together, praying together,

1265
00:58:26,083 --> 00:58:27,708
reading some books.

1266
00:58:27,792 --> 00:58:31,000
And I picked up one of
the books that was recommended,

1267
00:58:31,083 --> 00:58:33,500
and I just couldn't put it down.

1268
00:58:33,542 --> 00:58:38,417
I was soaking up what I was
reading about what God

1269
00:58:38,500 --> 00:58:40,292
intends for marriages.

1270
00:58:40,333 --> 00:58:42,292
Fast forward
to a year and a half.

1271
00:58:42,333 --> 00:58:44,500
I went to
a Mars Hill women's retreat,

1272
00:58:44,583 --> 00:58:47,500
and one of the pastor's
wives spoke about sexual sin,

1273
00:58:47,583 --> 00:58:52,500
and I felt God talking to
me right then that I have to

1274
00:58:52,583 --> 00:58:55,333
confess my sin, no
matter what happens.

1275
00:58:55,375 --> 00:58:58,000
I was 9 months pregnant
with our first.

1276
00:58:58,083 --> 00:59:03,375
And I knew probably I was
going to be a single mom.

1277
00:59:03,458 --> 00:59:04,875
I pretty much knew.

1278
00:59:04,958 --> 00:59:07,583
He had told me he would
forgive anything but that.

1279
00:59:07,667 --> 00:59:11,417
And so she just confessed it,
and I did not handle that well.

1280
00:59:11,500 --> 00:59:16,333
The truth is I wanted someone
to--I wanted to harm somebody.

1281
00:59:16,375 --> 00:59:20,000
When I was sitting there with
Mark and telling him about it,

1282
00:59:20,083 --> 00:59:24,208
yeah, I said,
"I want blood for this."

1283
00:59:24,292 --> 00:59:28,000
And Pastor Mark said, "You've
already got blood for it.

1284
00:59:28,083 --> 00:59:30,417
It's the blood of Jesus."

1285
00:59:30,500 --> 00:59:35,417
And that was very sobering.

1286
00:59:35,500 --> 00:59:38,667
I mean, it was so hypocritical
for me to sit there and say,

1287
00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:43,000
as a Christian, "Well, there's
one thing that I can't forgive."

1288
00:59:43,083 --> 00:59:45,625
I mean, that's really
what it was for me.

1289
00:59:45,667 --> 00:59:48,792
I mean, it was really a rubber
meets the road with my faith.

1290
00:59:48,833 --> 00:59:51,500
I came home
and dropped a bomb on him,

1291
00:59:51,542 --> 00:59:53,500
and yet I felt so free.

1292
00:59:53,583 --> 00:59:58,500
I felt that I was just--had
confessed all my sins,

1293
00:59:58,583 --> 01:00:02,417
and I was so happy and
filled with the Holy Spirit,

1294
01:00:02,500 --> 01:00:05,875
but there was still a lot
of really hard road to walk

1295
01:00:05,958 --> 01:00:08,917
through, and the ups
and downs of forgiveness,

1296
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:15,583
and walk with him in this cycle
of forgiveness and really what

1297
01:00:15,667 --> 01:00:19,292
that means, but being able to
trust God the whole way and know

1298
01:00:19,333 --> 01:00:21,333
that this is his plan.

1299
01:00:21,375 --> 01:00:25,417
You know, I think a lot
of people will hear about

1300
01:00:25,500 --> 01:00:28,583
our testimony and somehow
think that we're unique,

1301
01:00:28,667 --> 01:00:33,000
that God's done something for
us or in us that he won't do

1302
01:00:33,083 --> 01:00:35,500
for other people, and I think
that's a real mistake.

1303
01:00:35,583 --> 01:00:38,583
And the truth is that it's
the gospel that redeems us.

1304
01:00:38,667 --> 01:00:42,583
It's the blood of Christ that
redeems us, and it is a day-in,

1305
01:00:42,667 --> 01:00:45,708
day-out desire to want to
love Jesus more than we love

1306
01:00:45,792 --> 01:00:49,000
ourselves, and then to offer
the same type of forgiveness

1307
01:00:49,083 --> 01:00:53,000
that God gives us every day.

1308
01:00:53,083 --> 01:00:56,792
From the moment of that day,
it really has been just

1309
01:00:56,833 --> 01:00:59,125
a constant pursuit of Jesus.

1310
01:00:59,167 --> 01:01:02,792
I mean, there's no other
way to describe it.

1311
01:01:02,833 --> 01:01:06,125
And it has sometimes felt
long and hard, but, you know,

1312
01:01:06,167 --> 01:01:09,208
God's story for us, I mean,
he continues to have a plan.

1313
01:01:09,292 --> 01:01:12,917
And, you know, only a few
years ago I was a photographer,

1314
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:16,375
and suddenly God leads me into
being the lead pastor at

1315
01:01:16,458 --> 01:01:21,292
Mars Hill Bellevue, and I never
had a desire for ministry.

1316
01:01:21,333 --> 01:01:24,500
I could've never assumed that
God would have a calling on me

1317
01:01:24,542 --> 01:01:26,167
for that.

1318
01:01:26,250 --> 01:01:29,792
And Angie and I are a part of
a wonderful, wonderful church,

1319
01:01:29,833 --> 01:01:32,500
and we're fortunate to be able
to get to share

1320
01:01:32,583 --> 01:01:34,083
our story with others.